USA: Evangelikale auf Schmusekurs mit der Katholischen Kirche

Pater Morris: Der HERR will, dass Protestanten und Katholiken sich vereinigen


Nicht nur der Mormone Glenn Beck ist voll des Lobes für den katholischen Pater Jonathan Morris, über den er sagt, dass er versteht, dass „das wahre Selbst direkt mit Gott verbunden ist“, sondern auch der Evangelikale James Robison von den Südlichen Baptisten, der die christliche Sendung Life Today moderiert, schwärmt für den katholischen Pater und Autor:

„Und dieser katholische Priester weiß, dass die Quelle des Glücks in der Freude ist... und ich sage Ihnen, dieser Mann ist ein Segen.“

Pater Morris war theologischer Berater bei den Dreharbeiten von Mel Gibsons Film Die Passion Christi. Morris ist außerdem Mitarbeiter bei FOX News. Er verfasste ferner das Buch God Wants You Happy: From Self-Help to God's Help (Gott will, dass du glücklich bist: Von der Selbsthilfe zur Hilfe Gottes).

Auszüge aus dem Transkript eines Gesprächs zwischen dem Evangelikalen Robison mit seiner Frau Betty und dem Katholiken Morris in der Sendung Life Today:


Robison: Wann immer ich Sie im Fernsehen sehe – und ich sage Ihnen das geradeheraus als Evangelikaler, als Protestant – jedes Mal, wenn sie sprechen, sehe ich Jesus.

Morris: Danke schön.

Robison: Wenn Sie etwas sagen, dann ist das, was Sie sagen, so übereinstimmend mit Gottes Wort, mit dem Herzen Gottes und mit dem Geist Gottes - und dem Geist Christi -, dass ich staune. Und ich habe oft gesagt: „Ich wünschte mir, die meisten protestantischen Prediger hätten die Sensibilität und das Unterscheidungsvermögen und die Gabe zu kommunizieren wie Sie. Stimmen Sie [Robison wendet sich dem Publikum zu] mir zu, dass Sie Jesus in ihm sehen – ein wunderbarer Mann Gottes [Applaus].

Morris: Kann ich Ihnen allen etwas sagen? Ehrlich gesagt, es braucht viel Mut für einen Protestanten, Evangelikalen, Baptisten – wie auch immer Sie sich nennen, James – einen katholischen Priester in die Sendung einzuladen. Und ich weiß, dass sie nicht jede einzelne Lehre glauben, die ich glaube, und möglicherweise würden wir einige Meinungsverschiedenheiten über Dinge haben, wie Sie sagen, aber es geht um die Person Jesu Christi...
So viel – wir haben so viel gemeinsam, aber wir haben eine Person gemeinsam und das ist Jesus Christus und wir müssen zusammenarbeiten. Und wir müssen den Mut haben zusammenzuarbeiten, egal, was irgendjemand sagt. „Pater Jonathan, was haben Sie auf diesem Sender Life Today zu suchen, wir haben ein Zitat von James Robison aus dem Jahre 1975 [Gelächter] – er mochte diese Katholiken nicht allzu sehr.

Robison: O Gott, vergib mir! [Gelächter] Ich habe gerade öffentlich gebeichtet.

Morris: Aber ich denke, wir alle wissen heute, dass die Probleme der Welt von heute so viel größer als unsere Differenzen sind, und wir müssen den Mut haben, nicht weil wir vollkommen sind, sondern weil wir einen Gott haben, der vollkommen ist und uns liebt und einen Plan für uns hat, und aus diesem Grund sind wir heute hier versammelt.

Robison: Absolut! Und ich habe ihm das gesagt – ich habe Billy Graham den Marsch geblasen, weil er all diese Katholiken in seinen Veranstaltungen hatte [Gelächter]. Ich habe ihm sogar den Marsch geblasen, weil er Pfingstler und Charismatiker dabei hatte...

Morris: Ich bin froh, dazuzugehören.

Robison: ... Billy Graham war derjenige, der mich fragte: “Kennst du die Leute, über die du sprichst und vor denen du mich warnst?“ Und ich kannte sie nicht... Wenn Sie meine Sendung regelmäßig sehen, dann wissen Sie, dass ich es viele Male gesagt habe, wir kennen Ihn [zeigt nach oben] nicht so gut, wie wir sollten, weil wir uns weigern, sie kennenzulernen. Und weil wir uns nicht gegenseitig kennen und nicht die Antwort auf Jesu Gebet sind, dass wir alle eins sein sollen, haben wir noch nicht gelernt, was wir lernen sollten... Wenn Katholiken, Evangelikale, Protestanten, wenn wir nur auf einer gemeinsamen Grundlage zusammenkommen würden.

.....

Morris: Wir können es schaffen. Und ich glaube, dass es eine evangelikal-katholische Bewegung gibt, die sich formiert... Und Evangelikale, die sich auf die [katholischen] Traditionen besinnen und das Beste übernehmen, ohne Angst zu haben [gemeint ist die kontemplative Spiritualität].

Robison: Absolut. Hören Sie das gerne [Zuschauer applaudieren]. Ich denke: „Gott sei Dank!“

Morris: Danke, James.

Robison: ... Ich bin begeistert über das, was Gott tut. Ich sehe keine Hoffnungslosigkeit. Wissen Sie, Sie waren auf FOX, wo auch Glenn Beck [Mormone] zu sehen war, und Glenn und ich sind Freunde, und eines der Dinge, die ich Glenn immer wieder sage... Ich sage: „Ich habe immer Hoffnung, ich meine, du sprichst über den Weltuntergang. Mann, du bist der Weltuntergangs-Typ, der am meisten vom Weltuntergang spricht [Zuschauer lachen]...

Morris: Ja.

Robison: Und wir haben großartige Gemeinschaft ... und ich sage: „Glenn, habe etwas mehr Hoffnung.“ Ich glaube, dass die herrliche Hoffnung nicht nur in der Wiederkunft Christi besteht, sondern es ist die Hoffnung, dass Christus in uns ist.

.....

Morris: Und es geht nicht um uns, oder? Es geht um uns mit Gott, oder? Wer wird uns helfen, was können wir tun? Wir sind begrenzte menschliche Wesen... selbst mit Internet und Fernsehen, das ist nichts im Vergleich zu den Leiden einzelner Menschen, zu den Bedürfnissen von Familien...

Robison: Absolut.

Morris: Wir schaffen es nicht aus uns selbst, aber wir müssen unseren Teil beitragen und zu Juniorpartnern des Heiligen Geistes werden, um ein wunderbares Werk Gottes zu tun.

Robison: Amen. Wir alle sagen Amen dazu [Zuschauer applaudieren]. Hier ist das Buch [von Pater Morris]. Beten Sie für Pater Jonathan Morris ... und ich sage Ihnen, Sie sind immer eingeladen ... hier im heißen Texas ... Wir begrüßen es, wenn Sie uns besuchen.


Das Video auf You Tube wurde kurz nach der Sendung gesperrt.

Hier das Transkript der Sendung (in englischer Sprache):

James Robison: (to studio audience) We’re so glad to see you. (to camera) and we’re glad to see you. Welcome to Life Today, I’m James Robison. Betty and I are thrilled to have a Catholic priest, Father Jonathan Morris. Now let me just tell you something: Here’s a book that he’s written, God Wants You Happy and—and this uh, Catholic priest knows the source of happiness is joy; and that joy comes from a relationship with the Lord Jesus, and—and I’m telling you, this man is a blessing. I want you to welcome Father Jonathan Morris to Life Today. Would you give him a welcome?

Jonathan Morris: Thank you very much.

Robison: (shakes Morris’ hand) I’m glad to see you. Now, I—I’ve told you (pauses)

Morris: (reaches over to shake Betty Robison’s hand)

Robison: I’ve told you personally, ah, and on more than one occasion I have said—wh, “I watch you on—on FOX; and you’ll come on many of the different programs—you’re on FOX and Friends a lot in the morning. They’ll have you on often times during special uh—holidays, or, or let’s say “Christian” seasons whether it’s Christmas or Easter; and then they’ll ask you questions at various times of the year when there’s some question that comes up of a theological nature, Biblical nature, or spiritual nature—in their opinion—and sometimes they don’t really know the spiritual from the secular, but they’ll—they think they do.

Morris: They try. They do their best.

Robison: Whenever you’re on—and I’m just tell[ing] you this straight on as an evangelical—as a Protestant, every time you talk—every time I see you, I see Jesus.

Morris: Mm. Thank you.

Robison: When you open your mouth, that what you say is so consistent with the Word of God, with the heart of God, with the spirit of God—and the spirit of Christ—that I marvel. And I—I’ve often said, “I wish most Protestant preachers had the sensitivity, and discernment, and gift to communicate that you have. (quickly turns to audience) Don’t you agree that you see Jesus in this (applause)—wonderful man of God?

Morris: (to audience) Thank you very much.

Betty Robison: That’s what I—I’m appreciating; every time I’ve seen—seen you on FOX—is because there’s that—there’s that calmness and a peace that—and a sureness too—of where your beliefs come from an—and it’s just evident that God is first.

Morris: Can I say something to you all? It takes a lot of courage quite honestly—(unintelligible)—for a Protestant, evangelical, Bapti—I don’t know what you call yourself James—(laughter) to have a Catholic priest on. And I know that you do it not because you believe every, single theological thing that I believe—and we would probably have some dis—disagreements on things, but you said it—it’s about the person of Jesus Christ. And if you can have the courage, James, to have a Catholic priest to talk about things that we care about, I can say, “Let me tell you, I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.” You don’t hear many Catholics say it because we don’t know how to say it; we’re not used to saying it. We say, “Well I was baptized; and like, I can’t remember it, you know?” But you know what?

So much—we have so much in common, but we have one person in common and that is Jesus Christ and we have to work together and we have to have courage to work together no matter what anyone says. “Father Jonathan, what are you doing going on that “Life thing Today” we’ve got a quote from James Robison 1975 (audience laughs) you know—he didn’t like those Catholics too much.”

Robison: Oh God forgive me! (audience laughs) I’ve got public confessional.

Morris: But I think we all know right now that the world’s problems today are so much bigger than our differences and we have to have courage not because we’re perfect, but because we have a God who’s perfect and who loves us, and has a plan for us and that’s why we’re here today.

Robison: Absolutely. And I’ve told—I’ve told this to him. I—I’ve chewed Billy Graham out for having Catholics in all of his meetings (audience laughta). I’ve even chewed him out for having Pentecostals and charismatics. You talk about Baptist buddy—I was Baptist bought, bred, and born.

Morris: I’m glad I’m over here.

Robison: Scary, scary, scary—I think I used to scare God. (audience laughs) I used to tell people I—I—I put so much fear of hell in them nobody wanted to go—I just scared the hell out of them. It’s just—you know, here’s the thing God has—Billy Graham is the one that—he asked me, “Do you know these people you’re talking about and telling me to stay away from them?” And, I didn’t. And I—and I’ve said this—if you watch me you’ve heard me say this many times, we don’t know Him (pointing heavenward) as well as we should because we refuse to know them. And as a result of us not knowing one another and even being an answer to the prayer of Jesus that we be one, we’ve not learned as well as we should. and—and—Father, listen I—I’ve developed such wonderful relationships I’ve got to be honest with you, if…if Catholics, evangelicals, Protestants, if we would just come together on common ground.

Morris: Mm hmm.

Robison: You talk about a city set on a hill that cannot be hid. You talk about a city set on a hill that could light up the way the world should walk and reveal the way not to walk as well as to walk, I think it’s going to happen. I want you to tell me.—what—what do you want people to hear when you think about God Wants You Happy because I know you know it’s beyond frivolity—

Morris: Yes.

Robison: It’s not triteness, it’s not trivial, it’s not “hip hip hooray” there’s some depth here, that’s what you communicate. What do you want people to hear?

Morris: Even if the book is yellow and a smiley face looking (audience laughter) you know it’s…the subtitle of this book is, From Self Help to God’s Help. And there’s a self-help industry out there that has a lot of—I would say—pearls of wisdom, but unfortunately this industry has cut itself off, has divorced itself from the origin of true happiness.

Robison: Mm hmm.

Morris: And so yes, we can help ourselves, but we can only get so far and then the grace of God has to intervene. And what I, you know…on FOX News, on other secular…uh media venues, I…I look at mostly ethical issues as you mentioned James, right? Social issues, political issues that have meaning for our lives as families and as individuals and…and what I try to do is help people take (as we were talking at dinner tonight) baby steps…

Robison: Mm.

Morris: Right? Baby steps to understanding truth and goodness and beauty but, there’s more to it than taking baby steps…there’s something called walking and there’s something called running in the presence of God. And what I try to do in this book is to help people to go through…specifically through the theological virtues of faith, hope and love and begin to live in the presence of God through living faith, through living hope, through living love. And, God wants that for us and He wants us to be happy because He wants us to flourish at every single level of our existence; suffering included (of course), but flourishing with that spiritual joy that you talked about, James.

Robison: Well, you exemplify it. I mean, you really do and I’m not…I have no reason to just try to be patronizing or just say well, okay this is the kindness of the Evangelical Protestant to the Catholic

Morris: (laughs)

Robison: I…I am telling you that…that I believe that…that I’m going to get to see and be a part of Jesus’ prayer for us to have a oneness with the Father and to see a perfected…perfectedness and perfection coming from a supernatural unity and the world will know that we’re His disciples because of our love that I…I think that I’m going to get to see that. And…and…and just knowing you the little exchanges that you and I’ve had – really in the last weeks – have been quite remarkable and…and…and I…I’m thankful. Now, you…you’ve said in our conversations that you’ve seen some things…what you hear in my expressions that encourage you.

Morris: You know, um…I…on the plane here today, I read from cover to cover the manuscript you sent to me of your new book, Indivisible, and I’m reading it and I’m blown away. I’m saying, “You know what? Here we have (and I think you wrote it

Robison: With a Catholic..

Morris: With a Catholic.

Robison: Jay Richards.

Morris: Jay Richards…and I’m reading, you know…here we have our evangelical, well-known pastor, writing about things that I would write about. Here I am reading a Catholic who helped you, writing about evangelical things that I need to learn! And we need to help each other.

Robison: Absolutely.

Morris: And you know what, James? I think the center of this book is showing that the God given….the God given gift of faith…where’s the origin? Well, it’s God given…it’s from God, but we also have a God given gift of reason; and that gift of reason when it is well-formed, when it’s not polluted by all the junk that’s out there in the media, on the news, when we purify it…helping each other purify it, that gift of reason goes together with that gift of faith and they’re two wings upon which we can fly towards new heights. And, if we’re doing it together…

Robison: Mm hmm.

Morris: As evangelicals and Catholics; Christians, anyone of good will, I believe that our country can take steps forward and we can gain…not looking back, “Remember when back in the 60s or 40s or the NO! How about the 2020s?”

Robison: Yes!

Morris: Right?

Robison: Yes!

Morris: We can do it. And I believe there’s a…there’s a evangelical/Catholic movement that’s going on…

Robison: Yeah.

Morris: Right now. Not only two groups coming together, but Catholics who are evangelistic.

Robison: Mm hmm.

Morris: And evangelicals that are going back to traditions and finding the best of it and not being afraid of it.

Robison: Absolutely. Isn’t that…do you like hearing what you’re hearing? (Audience applause) I think, “Thank God!”

Morris: Thank you, James.

Robison: And I really believe…I…I’m excited about what I believe God is doing. I don’t…I don’t see hopelessness. You know, you’ve been on FOX where…where Glenn Beck has been and Glenn and I happen to be friends, but one of the things I keep saying to Glenn…I say, “Man, let’s have some hope.” I say, “I always have hope. I mean, you talk about doomsday. Man, you’re the doomsdayest guy sometimes I’ve ever heard (audience laughter) and I…he loves me and he listens

Morris: Yeah.

Robison: And we have great fellowship…and I’m saying, “Glenn…Glenn get your hopes up a little bit!” I…I believe the blessed hope is not just the return of the Lord, but is the hope Christ in us.

Morris: Yeah.

Robison: The hope of the manifestation of His glory, which I see on you; and I get the feeling that…you know…when we were having fellowship and…with other Evangelicals and we were eating together, it looked like you could see hope in this…this beautiful girl right here (pointing to Betty) and you could see hope in the others. Don’t you think that we have this hope that people are looking for and if they see it, they’re going to be drawn to it? I…I feel like that’s what you say when God wants you to be happy to have a life that is attractive in which Christ is lifted up…

Morris: That’s right.

Robison: Not just some dull religion.

Morris: And this is not hope that’s like, “Hey, positive thinking…optimism…hey, c’mon, wake up…get up…have some coffee (laughts) that’s not it! You know, optimism is a mere emotional state of the soul. Hope is being positive…positive thinking, positive acting. Why? Because we know that Christ has already had the victory. And so, whether I feel like (pauses) bad (audience laughter) or whether I feel great, that emotional state of the soul is less important than the deep, theological, spiritual conviction that God is on my side, that He’s with me…

Robison: Mm hmm.

Morris: And that He’s not going to abandon me; and we have to be that for one another.

Robison: That’s good preaching (audience laughter).

Morris: What do you all say here down in the south? “That that’ll preach?”

Robison: That’ll preach.

Betty Robison: I love the title of your…God Wants You Happy, but I believe God is happy when He sees His children fellowshipping together and getting along together.

Morris: ?? rejoicing in heaven, right?

Betty Robison: Amen.

James Robison: He does. I believe the angels rejoice. I believe the Father rejoices. I know Jesus who’s daily making intercession for us…I believe He has turned to His Father and says, “Father prepare to get an answer. We’re getting together.” I….don’t you like what you see? And don’t you know God likes for us to come together? (audience applauds) Let me…let me just ask you a serious ??? that I think is really remarkable because this just shows that religion isn’t the answer…a relationship with the Jesus you talked about right up front…the priest that was over…

Morris: Mm hmm.

Robison: Over your head…

Morris: Religious order.

Robison: Your fellowship. He failed.

Morris: Yup.

Robison: But your faith didn’t fail. Explain that to us.

Morris: I wrote about that a little bit in this book. Um…just as a basic primer…there are two types of priests: There are religious order priests – you might have heard of them…Jesuits or Franciscans and then there are parish priests or Diocesan priests. And I was part of an order that was founded in Mexico and the founder turned out to be…he was a very charismatic guy…he had turned out to be basically a big fraud. And, it wasn’t found out until sixty years after he was running this…and tremendous good people got involved and did wonderful things, and then we found out another whole aspect or many aspects of his life…of the humanity…the broken, frail humanity; and if we put our faith in any specific person…even your wife or your husband, a specific pastor, um…a boss, or a hope that I might have to have such and such a position, or money…we’re going to be, ultimately, disappointed. And, that’s a very good thing to be disappointed when we’ve placed our hope in a place that does not deserve our hope.

Robison: Yeah. Our trust.

Morris: Yes, it was hard. You know, here I’m writing this book, God Wants You Happy, and I’m going through all this stuff, you know…yeah…whatever! Right? (laughter) And, but isn’t that how God works? In the midst of our pain He’s helping us and pushing us along and uh…so yeah, it was painful, but hey, we uh…it’s good for us sometimes.

Robison: Yeah, He looked beyond our sin and gave us forgiveness and grace; and we can look beyond our pain and the failures of others and see His adequacy and His sufficiency. I…I want to encourage you to get Father Jonathan Morris’ book, God Wants You Happy, in the truest, purest sense of the word. And then whenever you see him…and I’m praying that God will open doors beyond anything he’s ever imagined…I pray this for him, and matter of fact, he’s come on this program where so many people highly visible in evangelical circles have been, I’ve never heard anyone put it any clearer, any plainer, any more precisely, any more directly pointing to Jesus than he did and I…I believe I’m watching (just what he referred to a moment ago) I’m watching something happen in the family of God that lifts us above all those barriers that have been put up, always in defense of the faith… always, but often times in the defense of the faith we destroy the demonstration of the faith and the high impact potential of the faith; and I believe God’s going to heal that. And…and…you know Father, I don’t see that as a compromise. I see we’ve been compromising over our various differences and we’ve really missed the power of the real Difference Maker

Morris: That’s right.

Robison: The Lord Jesus.

Morris: And it’s not about us or even about (gesturing to entire audience) right? It’s about us with God, right? Who’s going to help us because hey, what can we do? We’re limited human beings with a limited scope that even with the Internet and television, it’s nothing (laughter) that’s nothing compared to the suffering of individuals, the needs of families…

Robison: Absolutely.

Morris: And we can’t do it on our own, but we have to do our part and be the junior partners with the Holy Spirit to bring about a wonderful work of God.

Robison: Amen. We all say amen to that (audience applause) Here’s the book. You pray for Father Jonathan Morris, and I…I’ll just tell you here right now…you’ve got an invitation…and I don’t know how often you want to leave up in the, you know New York or in the happy, happy grounds or whatever and come down here to hot, uh Texas…you know…somebody said, “All Texas needs is a little more air conditioning and you know a little bit more water,” and somebody said, “That’s all Hell needs.” (laughter) But if you…if you want to come down, you’ve got an invitation if you’ll just let us know you’re coming this way, or you would just say, “You know what? I’ll make it a part of my schedule.” We’d love to have you come.

Morris: Well, let’s do it. Let’s play golf, too.

Robison: Let’s do that! (laughter) Shake on that. Let’s do it! Say thanks to Father Jonathan Morris (audience applause). I want to again say thanks to Father Jonathan Morris and remind you that God Wants You Happy and I just pray that all of us evangelicals, Protestants, whoever…every Catholic…every professing Christian would be the kind of witness and the kind of light that Father Jonathan Morris is. Would you say thanks to the Father?

Morris: Thank you.

Robison: Thank you. Thank all of you for watching. Thank you for your support. We love you. Thanks for loving us.